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CBA update?
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AFLNerd36
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Joined: 19 Jun 2016
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mactheknife wrote:
afdave wrote:
Again, I, and I think many of us, believe that the 3 core NBA/NHL owners in the league right now are just as apt to shut it all down as to capitulate to the AFLPU's demands.


Yep. Every dollar they've lost on Arena Football is just another reason to pull the plug if Soto starts messing around. I wonder who'll buy up the intellectual property rights this time and pretend to be an extension of the original AFL...


It wouldn't surprise me if Leonsis bought it, got a group of "former" AFL owners together, added a few new team ownership groups to get a total of 10 teams, and re-launched the AFL in 2019/2020... of course, he'd ban Ivan Soto from this rebooted AFL for life... and I think that might actually work.
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4th&long
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFLNerd36 wrote:
mactheknife wrote:
afdave wrote:
Again, I, and I think many of us, believe that the 3 core NBA/NHL owners in the league right now are just as apt to shut it all down as to capitulate to the AFLPU's demands.


Yep. Every dollar they've lost on Arena Football is just another reason to pull the plug if Soto starts messing around. I wonder who'll buy up the intellectual property rights this time and pretend to be an extension of the original AFL...


It wouldn't surprise me if Leonsis bought it, got a group of "former" AFL owners together, added a few new team ownership groups to get a total of 10 teams, and re-launched the AFL in 2019/2020... of course, he'd ban Ivan Soto from this rebooted AFL for life... and I think that might actually work.


Just looking at his twitter acct - Soto looking completely on the wrong side and out of touch on many levels. Can't see why players chose him and hope he doesn't screw things up.
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TargetToad
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th&long wrote:
AFLNerd36 wrote:
mactheknife wrote:
afdave wrote:
Again, I, and I think many of us, believe that the 3 core NBA/NHL owners in the league right now are just as apt to shut it all down as to capitulate to the AFLPU's demands.


Yep. Every dollar they've lost on Arena Football is just another reason to pull the plug if Soto starts messing around. I wonder who'll buy up the intellectual property rights this time and pretend to be an extension of the original AFL...


It wouldn't surprise me if Leonsis bought it, got a group of "former" AFL owners together, added a few new team ownership groups to get a total of 10 teams, and re-launched the AFL in 2019/2020... of course, he'd ban Ivan Soto from this rebooted AFL for life... and I think that might actually work.


Just looking at his twitter acct - Soto looking completely on the wrong side and out of touch on many levels. Can't see why players chose him and hope he doesn't screw things up.


I think Soto biggest problem is that he is disrespectful and unprofessional. He acts like buffoon via his open twitter beef and very pubically laughs in the face of these owners, whether they are/were a surgeon from Spokane (I think that was the Shock owner's profession; please correct if I'm wrong), an ex-NFL star turned ESPN personality (Jaws; Swann, Mean Joe, and Blount in Pittsburgh), or a billion dollar NBA/NHL owner (Vinik, Leonsis, Comic-Sans-Man). Soto is making not only himself, but the players, league, and OWNERS look bad with his arrogant behavior. Even at a McDonald's or Burger King, you have to be respectful (and well skilled in the ways of the interview) to get a job. I don't think Soto is any of those things.

Compare Soto to Gene Upshaw of the NFL (which, at least economically, is a goal for the AFL). Even if Upshaw failed in 1987 to get what he wanted and even if he failed to get what he wanted in other CBA talks and was public in his disagreement, he never mocked the owners before, during, or after the meetings. He didn't win, but at least Upshaw was respectful and eventually, he achieved his goal for the players of free agency (kinda) and pensions (again, kinda).

Even if free agency and pensions are unattainable for the Arena League, something like paying for treatment for on-field injuries and/or an extra $50-$100 a game isn't unreasonable.

Going back to Soto, he's being A. Unreasonable, B.Unprofessional, C. Disrespectful, and D. Hated by the crazy-devoted fans (A.K.A: us), and the majority of the league at large . T.T. Tolliver, on the other hand, is experienced, more mature, and beloved by the entire AFL (other than the corners he's burned over the years and Jay Gruden).

#TT4AFLPU
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ssnapier
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just had an entertaining tweet exchange with Mr. Soto.
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mactheknife
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssnapier wrote:
I just had an entertaining tweet exchange with Mr. Soto.


Don't leave us all hangin' like that... As my teenager's fond of saying, "C'mon... give us some deets!"
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ssnapier
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just him trying to position himself and the players as the disadvantaged party. It also appears that he has no intention of initiating these talks, so it is up to the league to get things started.
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ssnapier
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



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4th&long
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad I'm not a player with this guy representing me. Good Lord.
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ssnapier
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I had a few more replies... they are not in that chain, but you get the idea.
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4th&long
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: its Oct 1st - is the AFL w/o a CBA? Reply with quote

What's the scoop?

its Oct 1st - is the AFL w/o a CBA?
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mactheknife
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th&long wrote:
I'm glad I'm not a player with this guy representing me. Good Lord.


Oh, dear Lord... Shocked

I don't know if there are any current AFLPU members who visit this forum, but if there are, please, do yourselves and the sport you play a favor and work toward removing this man from the position you've elected him to.

If your CBA expired and the owners haven't even bothered to contact him regarding a new deal? There's not a level of bad high enough to describe just how bad that is.

That he's seemingly being rather cavalier about it all is even worse.

That he's even mentioning ticket price increases, at a time when if anything your product is extremely overpriced (as evidenced by all those people who show up at your arenas disguised as empty seats) denotes a downright Trumpian level of stupidity and disconnect with reality.

Do yourselves a favor: find a way to fire this guy and get someone in his place who knows what the hell they're doing. Because if he, Butera and Co. aren't even talking yet? You might be playing in the IFL, CIFL, AAL, NAL or EIEIO league next year.
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TargetToad
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mactheknife wrote:
4th&long wrote:
I'm glad I'm not a player with this guy representing me. Good Lord.


Oh, dear Lord... Shocked

I don't know if there are any current AFLPU members who visit this forum, but if there are, please, do yourselves and the sport you play a favor and work toward removing this man from the position you've elected him to.

If your CBA expired and the owners haven't even bothered to contact him regarding a new deal? There's not a level of bad high enough to describe just how bad that is.

That he's seemingly being rather cavalier about it all is even worse.

That he's even mentioning ticket price increases, at a time when if anything your product is extremely overpriced (as evidenced by all those people who show up at your arenas disguised as empty seats) denotes a downright Trumpian level of stupidity and disconnect with reality.

Do yourselves a favor: find a way to fire this guy and get someone in his place who knows what the hell they're doing. Because if he, Butera and Co. aren't even talking yet? You might be playing in the IFL, CIFL, AAL, NAL or EIEIO league next year.

And promote from within; find someone who either is a current player or a former player who understands what the players need because they have dealt with this before.
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TargetToad
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: its Oct 1st - is the AFL w/o a CBA? Reply with quote

4th&long wrote:
What's the scoop?

its Oct 1st - is the AFL w/o a CBA?

Yes, it's October and we have no CBA. :(
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4th&long
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: its Oct 1st - is the AFL w/o a CBA? Reply with quote

TargetToad wrote:
4th&long wrote:
What's the scoop?

its Oct 1st - is the AFL w/o a CBA?

Yes, it's October and we have no CBA. :(


Well - what is the real impact here?
- What is the impact on 2018 season?
- What is the impact on potential Expansion?
- Can the league move forward without one?


I don't hear people saying the sky is falling.

Any answers out there?
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mactheknife
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: its Oct 1st - is the AFL w/o a CBA? Reply with quote

4th&long wrote:
Well - what is the real impact here?
- What is the impact on 2018 season?
- What is the impact on potential Expansion?
- Can the league move forward without one?

I don't hear people saying the sky is falling.

Any answers out there?


The answers to these questions are variables in and of themselves, which is why there's so much concern (and in my case at least, pessimism).

"Can the league move forward without one?" is the question whose answer dictates the others. I'm far from a labor law expert, but it's probably pretty simple in that if they can, there'll be a 2018 season. And if not, there won't be unless it strikes a deal with the AFLPU.

The most obvious impact to a 2018 season would be that a valid labor stoppage would be that there would be no season. But with every day of labor uncertainty comes with it uncertainty with respect to the other two questions. The league can't make a schedule unless/until they know who's going to play. The teams can't sell tickets for games that aren't scheduled. Potential expansion teams can't get organized until they're actually admitted into the league, and they won't consent to be admitted without knowing there'll be a season for the team to play.

The impacts are sort of circular, but in essence everything AFL has ground to a halt unless/until they have a CBA as a result.
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Firstnten.net
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Joined: 23 Jun 2011
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So a fan asks why talks haven't started

Soto response; says players union don't run leagues they work with them and react to league decision's.

What a load of Horse ****

And then turns around and tells the league what it should charge for tickets. I didn't realize that the AFLPU and in particular Soto knows what the AFL business model should be.

This isn't "our" first rodeo...no it's your second...what a total clown this guy is.

Ted Leonsis has more business sense, business acumen in his little toe than Soto could dream of obtaining.
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Ironman

Joined: 23 Jun 2011
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: its Oct 1st - is the AFL w/o a CBA? Reply with quote

mactheknife wrote:
4th&long wrote:
Well - what is the real impact here?
- What is the impact on 2018 season?
- What is the impact on potential Expansion?
- Can the league move forward without one?

I don't hear people saying the sky is falling.

Any answers out there?


The answers to these questions are variables in and of themselves, which is why there's so much concern (and in my case at least, pessimism).

"Can the league move forward without one?" is the question whose answer dictates the others. I'm far from a labor law expert, but it's probably pretty simple in that if they can, there'll be a 2018 season. And if not, there won't be unless it strikes a deal with the AFLPU.

The most obvious impact to a 2018 season would be that a valid labor stoppage would be that there would be no season. But with every day of labor uncertainty comes with it uncertainty with respect to the other two questions. The league can't make a schedule unless/until they know who's going to play. The teams can't sell tickets for games that aren't scheduled. Potential expansion teams can't get organized until they're actually admitted into the league, and they won't consent to be admitted without knowing there'll be a season for the team to play.

The impacts are sort of circular, but in essence everything AFL has ground to a halt unless/until they have a CBA as a result.


First Does anyone believe for a second that the AFLPU haven't had any discussion with the AFL about the CBA? Soto just came back from the NLRB for a grievance he filed AGAINST the AFL.

Second if Soto's negotiation tactic is to wait until the AFL presents him with a CBA he's flat out not doing his job and he's a grade A moron.

Which the leads us to the alternative that he's a liar and he's trying to manipulate the perception of the AFL.
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afdave
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A labor union is only as effective as the laws surrounding it, the agreements with the company and the union, and the skill level of the employees vs. "another guy not in the union".

So, let's go one by one in this case:

1) Laws.... Someone else can correct me, but, I am pretty sure there are no direct laws that require a sports league to ONLY use players who belong to a union. Which is why we've seen "scabs" in the past, even in the top pro levels (although the last real use of that AFAIK was 1987 NFL, I'm not aware that anything dramatic has changed since then).

2) Union/Company agreements ..... AKA "The CBA".... the CBA has expired, so, until they get another one made, it is basically "free agency" sans a union.... the union can still have any players in the union not play (ie, strike), until an agreement is made... but....

3) Skill sets ..... this is where the AFLPU has VASTLY diminished power vs. a union representing the top levels of each sport. Are there players "popular" with the core fan base of the AFL teams.... sure, but, it is about the same as "popular" players with an "AA" or "A" baseball team... they are popular that year, but, for the most part, the majority of people coming to the games don't know the players THAT well, and if they do, they know they don't expect them to be there for 5-10 years.

Honestly, while yes, the players in the AFL have a slightly better skill set than players in other indoor leagues, that is mainly a situation of the pay difference.... but even with that, this isn't the NFL.... whereas the NFLPU uses the ability of having "star players" NOT playing if the NFL doesn't meet their demands... there are no true "star players" in the AFL the AFLPU can really use to make the same demands.

That being said... should the AFLPU take $250/gm, or $500/gm if the AFL teams say "that is what we are offering".... no.... I mean, you can go play in the IFL at that point then. I am not aware that that is what the AFL is planning on offering though... I would think the starting point is the $800-1000/gm, wherever that is sitting right now this past season. It sounds like the AFL wants to go to more of a "whole team" salary cap, along with a player minimum, vs. an individual player salary/cap based on tenure... which seems reasonable... then you are just deciding what the cap is, based on how much money (supposedly) the teams are making in raw income, vs. their expenses other than player costs.
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Firstnten.net
Ironman

Joined: 23 Jun 2011
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

afdave wrote:


That being said... should the AFLPU take $250/gm, or $500/gm if the AFL teams say "that is what we are offering".... no.... I mean, you can go play in the IFL at that point then. I am not aware that that is what the AFL is planning on offering though... I would think the starting point is the $800-1000/gm, wherever that is sitting right now this past season. It sounds like the AFL wants to go to more of a "whole team" salary cap, along with a player minimum, vs. an individual player salary/cap based on tenure... which seems reasonable... then you are just deciding what the cap is, based on how much money (supposedly) the teams are making in raw income, vs. their expenses other than player costs.


I would bet good money that this is the problem. The AFL wants a cap and Soto's idea of how much the cap should be I would bet is completely unreasonable and or unrealistic.

Just going by the statement he made on how much the league should be charging fans.
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mojodcat
 

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

20 man game day roster, correct? Seems $10,00 ($500 average)on the low side and $15,000 ($750 average) on the high is where the team ownership's would be shooting for.
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