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Rwlms
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Joined: 11 Feb 2010
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: AF2 or something Reply with quote

Kurz said on the NFLN broadcast that an AFL developmental league will start next year - AF2?

Now, will any teams drop back...(assuming there is a next year strike threat and all)
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VooDooNut
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Joined: 12 Mar 2011
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What will they pay the players in the developmental league?

Shocked
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luckykat
 

Joined: 16 Feb 2006
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KC & MIL maybe drop down. Is it possible for GA to relocate again so soon but stay in AFL?
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VooDooNut
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh

I see a league in its death throes

I very much hope I'm wrong about this, but...
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SnakesAlive
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Joined: 27 Jul 2007
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will believe this when I see it, if the league is starting their own developmental league, then which franchises/markets can they go into that make any geographic sense? If the league is buying or affliating with an existing league, then which one. Many of the the leagues out there have issues of being run very poorly, utilizing travel teams, etc., things that would be considered well below the standards of what the af2 used to stand for. I for one will have to see a lot more details on this before I will even get remotely excited about this evening's proclaimation by the commissioner.
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Tuxedo
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing you'll see 3-4 teams drop down to the new league. There are teams willing to spend more money on their players and the league's operating budget, but there are currently enough to halt it. This way you can have teams that desire to keep their operating budgets the same still apart of the arena football family. The rest can remain in the AFL and raise the pay and whatnot.

It will be interesting to see how this new league forms though. Will they absorb another league or will there be a significant amount of expansion teams?
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Lou.Fire
 

Joined: 02 Jun 2010
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:10 am    Post subject: !!!!! Louisville Fire !!!!! Reply with quote

Any info on the Louisville Fire returning!
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wildthing2022000
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny he said that since I just did a post on that a week ago. http://bostonafl.blogspot.com/2012/05/my-dream-af2.html

My af2 puts teams close to their AFL parent clubs but it'll probably be a free-for-all type league like it was before but with some sort of waiver system so the bad teams get first crack at the af2's best players.
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QBall13
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF it's done at all then I believe it will be the PIFL. The way I understood it (or maybe it was just my imagination) they were supposed to become the new af2 after last season when they were the SIFL. My best guess was that instability prevented it from happening. They also appear to have an open door policy with the AFL this season as has been well documented on this site.
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Wild09
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone seen attendance numbers from the PIFL? The only team averaging more than 3,000 fans is Albany who get more than 5,000. Knoxville gets below 1500 per game. These teams will not be able to afford the increased costs in the af2 and does the AFL want to deal with a bunch of teams averaging 2,000 fans per game? I just don't see established teams joining the af2 with the increase in costs and the pain in the ass of hanging the nets.
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c-dmiller
 

Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Location: upstate south carolina
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could see converting one,maybe two,of the "ankle bitter"(Kurz) leagues to the AFL standard.But,with the AFL itself on life support,I can't see it starting up a bunch of new teams.If the AFL players only get $400,what do the af2 players make,$200 ??

Last edited by c-dmiller on Sun May 27, 2012 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SnakesAlive
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wild09 wrote:
Has anyone seen attendance numbers from the PIFL? The only team averaging more than 3,000 fans is Albany who get more than 5,000. Knoxville gets below 1500 per game. These teams will not be able to afford the increased costs in the af2 and does the AFL want to deal with a bunch of teams averaging 2,000 fans per game? I just don't see established teams joining the af2 with the increase in costs and the pain in the !!! of hanging the nets.


Valid point you bring up, while the PIFL is supposed to go to rebound nets and full arena rules for 2013, I do not see how owners in these lower leagues could afford any additional costs, particularly if it ends up being a cost structure similar to the af2 of 2009, that will never fly. I have to believe that there is a purchase or affliation deal in the works but how many of these leagues on the landscape would really be that attractive? It would be rather difficult for the AFL to restart the af2 from scratch.
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VooDoo's Kelly Bones
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the developmental league could take over the IPFL, IFL, and what ever else is out there....just like the MLB does with AAA.

Ex. Florida Marlons -> New Orleans Zeyphrs
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Caballo Diablo
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Joined: 18 Jul 2007
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indoor Leagues/markets courtesy of Our Sports Central
This link will lead you to all league and team pages and articles
http://www.oursportscentral.com/sports/?m_id=Football

AIF Teams: (2012)
http://aifprofootball.com/
Arizona Outlaws - Prescott Valley, Arizona
California Eagles - Stockton, California
Cape Fear Heroes - Fayetteville, North Carolina
Carolina Force - Kannapolis, North Carolina
Harrisburg Stampede - Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Macon Steel - Macon, Georgia
Maryland Reapers - Laurel, Maryland
Nevada Lynx - None, None
North Alameda Knights - None, None
Ontario Warriors - Ontario, California
Tri-State Redhawks - None, None
Virginia Badgers - Richmond, Virginia
Sin City Blackjacks * - Las Vegas, Nevada
* (Expansion/Inactive)

Co-Founder/CEO - John Morris
While the AIF is listed as beginning in 2012, it developed from a long and tangled past. In `05 Andrew Haines started the Atlantic Indoor Football league which was a disaster and the name was changed to the American Indoor Football league. Near the end of `06 John Morris and Michael came aboard to ousted Haines.

As time went on the league struggled and lost teams to the WIFL and NIFL. In 2010 Haines started the UIFL and Mink & Morris took over the AIFA. Then came the partial merger with the SIFL and M&M split, Morris took the AIFA (East) and Mink was going to start the AIFA West which was a failed effort.

Many of the teams were started/owned by Haines Mink, and Morris. Haines and Morris still carry on this tradition of a failed business plan.


CIFL Teams : (2006 as the GIFL)
Chicago Pythons - Chicago, Illinois
Dayton Silverbacks - Dayton, Ohio
Evansville Rage - Evansville, Indiana
Indianapolis Enforcers - Indianapolis, Indiana
Port Huron Patriots - Port Huron, Michigan
Saginaw Sting - Saginaw, Michigan

Co-Founders;
Jeff Spitaleri (Commish)
Eric Spitaleri
Dave Stein
Cory Trapp


IFL Teams: (2009)
Originally formed by the merger of the UIF (04) and the Intense league (03)
http://www.goifl.com/
Allen Wranglers - Allen, Texas
Bloomington Edge - Bloomington, Illinois
Cedar Rapids Titans - Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Chicago Slaughter - Chicago, Illinois
Colorado Ice - Loveland, Colorado
Everett Raptors - Everett, Washington
Green Bay Blizzard - Green Bay, Wisconsin
Lehigh Valley Steelhawks - Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
Nebraska Danger - Grand Island, Nebraska
New Mexico Stars - Albuquerque, New Mexico
Omaha Beef - Omaha, Nebraska
Reading Express - Reading, Pennsylvania
Sioux Falls Storm - Sioux Falls, South Dakota
Tri-Cities Fever - Pasco, Washington
Wichita Wild - Wichita, Kansas
Wyoming Cavalry - Casper, Wyoming
Charlotte Speed * - Charlotte, North Carolina
Fairbanks Grizzlies * - Fairbanks, Alaska
Wenatchee Valley Venom * - Wenatchee, Washington
* (Expansion/Inactive)

Robert Loving - Interim Commish
The orig Commish was Tommy Benezio, he resigned recently to join the Allen Wranglers as a co-owner.


LSFL Teams: (2012)
http://www.texaslsfl.com/
Abilene Ruff Riders - Abilene, Texas
Amarillo Venom - Amarillo, Texas
Corpus Christi Hammerheads - Corpus Christi, Texas
Houston Stallions - Houston, Texas
Laredo Rattlesnakes - Laredo, Texas
Mesquite Bandits - Mesquite, Texas
Rio Grande Valley Magic - Hidalgo, Texas
West Texas Roughnecks - Odessa, Texas
San Angelo Stampede Express * - San Angelo, Texas
* (Expansion/Inactive)

Darlene Jones - Commissioner


PIFL Teams: (2012)
http://www.proifl.com/
Alabama Hammers - Huntsville, Alabama
Albany Panthers - Albany, Georgia
Columbus Lions - Columbus, Georgia
Knoxville NightHawks - Knoxville, Tennessee
Louisiana Swashbucklers - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Richmond Raiders - Richmond, Virginia

No Commish


UIFL Teams: (2011)
http://uiflfootball.com/
Cincinnati Commandos - Cincinnati, Ohio
Eastern Kentucky Drillers - Pikeville, Kentucky
Erie Explosion - Erie, Pennsylvania
Florida Tarpons - Fort Myers, Florida
Johnstown Generals - Johnstown, Pennsylvania
Lakeland Raiders - Lakeland, Florida
Marion Blue Racers - Marion, Ohio
Mississippi Hound Dogs - Tupelo, Mississippi
Rome Rampage - Rome, Georgia
Western Pennsylvania Sting - None, None
Canton Cougars * - Canton, Ohio
Huntington Hammer * - Huntington, West Virginia
Missouri Monsters * - St. Charles, Missouri
* (Expansion/Inactive)

Jared Lorenzen Commissioner
Co-Founders - Michael Taylor and Andrew Haines
Haines was also the owner and founder of the Atlantic/American Indoor Football League and the Mid-Atlantic Hockey League.

Most would list them best to worst as;

IFL
PIFL
LSFL
CIFL
And the AIF and UIFL probably tie for worst

The PIFL and LSFL are in year one so it might be too soon to rank them in a positive light but they were formed with some existing teams and so far seem to have done thing on the up and up trying to do it correctly. Some are still waiting to see how things pan out with the LSFL as they feel Chad Dittman has too much control. He started the Intense League, has owned many teams and still likes to own multiple teams which often causes problems.

The CIFL has always struggled and thought for dead year in and year out. It became a tradition for their championship team to jump leagues but somehow the Spitaleri's seem to find a way to hold things together. The UIFL did great in their inaugural year but have sunk fast imploding on almost a daily basis. Morris and Haines are thought by many to be scam artists as they duct tape teams and leagues together long enough to collect funds from unsuspecting owners/investors.

There are many teams/markets in these leagues that were previously associated with the af2. So yes, there are some teams and markets that could nicely help remake the af2.

A question is how many of the these guys can come aboard and be moved down a few rungs on their ladder. Many are huge ego problems and wouldn't last long being under the strict control of Kurz. Many of them have said Jerry is a dictator and these guys do not like to be told what to do.

Another issue that others have brought up is money. Many have joined the Indoor Leagues because of the cheaper budgets. Many are not convinced the differing style of Anena vs Indoor is worth the extra expense/losses.

can it be done, yes. Will it be easy, no. It is very difficult to get enough financially qualified owners to put a league together.
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daytonadan2007
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Joined: 20 Feb 2007
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Nice job, Cabby. Reply with quote

All I can offer if this...

Q: How does Jerry Kurz like his eggs?

A: Poached.

I hope that silliness doesn't start up again...
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nolesrule
ArenaFan Staff

Joined: 01 Jan 2001
Location: Clearwater, FL
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind that somewhere out there, there are a couple dozen unused rebound net structures. I have no idea who owns them, where they are being stored, or if they were sent off for scrap, but there's bound to be some still available.
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SnakesAlive
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Joined: 27 Jul 2007
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CD,

Great post however I will make several observations/corrections about the PIFL:

1. While it is true that there is no commissioner that has been formally hired, the commissioner functions are being handled by committee, my understanding is that it is a five person committee, one person from each ownership group in the league is on the committee, one owner owns two teams but is represented once on the committee. So I would say that the correct status for the PIFL would be Commissioner by Committee or Board of Directors approach.

2. While the PIFL is in its first season of existence, many of the teams that play in the PIFL have been around a lot longer:

Louisiana = 7 years
Columbus = 6 years
Albany = 3 years
Richmond = 3 years
Alabama = 2 years
Knoxville = 1 year

If one were to add the af2/AFL experience in for the Alabama and Albany markets, then Alabama would at 13 years of continuous play and Albany would be at 8 years of continuous play. I think it is equally as important to look at the strength of what the individual market's bring to the table as compared to the history of the league. That said, there have been few issues in the PIFL season, reminds me a lot of what the af2 looked like in the year 2000.
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Wild09
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Joined: 01 Jan 2009
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will just invoke many of the same arguments I used to tell everyone that "Tier 2" was not going to happen a couple years ago.

http://www.arenafan.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=118770&highlight=

"Tier 2" was not feasible then and then same obsticles apply now.
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SnakesAlive
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

QBall13 wrote:
IF it's done at all then I believe it will be the PIFL. The way I understood it (or maybe it was just my imagination) they were supposed to become the new af2 after last season when they were the SIFL. My best guess was that instability prevented it from happening. They also appear to have an open door policy with the AFL this season as has been well documented on this site.


You were not imagining things, there was a supposed plan or at least discussions, where the SIFL was supposed to become the affliated development league of the AFL, but Thomas Hager and Gary Tufford pretty much screwed it up.

I could see the PIFL as an attractive candidate for the AFL but I would also not discount the IFL being in this mix. Doug MacGregor, the former owner of the Vipers and current owner of the Force, is also the head of the AFL competition committee, if I am not mistaken, he still has some interest in the Tri-Cities Fever of the IFL. There were stories about the Green Bay Blizzard having to pay for the name and the Amarillo Dusters not being allowed to use their af2 names in the IFL, but there was nothing ever said about the Fever, and the Fever were the squad permitted to continue to use the name. Why? The answer can be summed up in one word, MacGregor. The IFL has more of a national footprint which probably fits more in line with what the AFL is looking for, the PIFL could be too small of a league to mess with.

Below is the article that appeared on oursportscentral.com that chronicled their grand, but ill-fated plan:

Over a Cup of Coffee, oursportscentral.com
Posted on Oct 18, 2010, 9:19am

by Jerry Hewitt - In Saturday's Coffee, we explained a scenario in which one or more indoor football leagues might become the next edition of arenafootball2, the Arena Football League's official minor league. Yesterday I had someone from inside one of the leagues involved explain more of the details.
The basic story is that the Southern Indoor Football League is dealing on two fronts: first, acquiring the American Indoor Football Association's East Division and at the same time trying to broker a deal with the AFL to become the next af2. I don't want to get a head of things, so first some history on the SIFL itself and its immediate plans for the AIFA East.

Thom Hager started the SIFL as a regional Texas-based alternative to the more expensive Indoor Football League. The teams which belong to the SIFL have had no say as to which ownerships were brought into the league as Mr. Hager, I'm told, made those decisions. The teams also have had little to no say in their destiny since it was Mr. Hager's league and his to do with as he wanted, even selling it without the member teams input and it appears that is exactly what has happened. Teams in the AIFA East can relate to their plight.

Hager informed the teams and SIFL staff at the recent SIFL league meetings that he had sold the league to an attorney out of New Jersey, and this attorney is now brokering the deals mentioned. Now I'm also told that new SIFL Commissioner Gary Tufford and this New Jersey attorney are the ones behind the move, their intent since Tufford was tabbed to lead the SIFL.

To further the story, I'm told Columbus and Albany were promised teams closer to them for 2011 and were told negotiations were under way with Augusta, Macon, Rome, Savannah and Mobile. When teams recently asked how that was going, they were told Commissioner Tufford was close to closing deals with Macon, Savannah and Rome, but in reality Tufford may not have even seriously looked at those markets and instead was spending the majority of his time trying to get the AIFA East out from under John Morris. The league went so far as to issue a press release stating that Rome would not get an SIFL team.

None of these moves fit into what Hager promised fans from the start. The SIFL was supposed to be a regional league, kept small by design in order to control travel costs, so that teams weren't burdened with large budgets and fans could easily follow their teams on the road. I have to question how Harrisburg and Erie of the AIFA might fit into a travel-friendly schedule in the SIFL. I might also question how adding AIFA teams benefits Augusta and Columbus who appear now to have drives of over eight hours to most of their away games.

Recently I asked all the leagues for a quote on what they were doing to further stabilize their leagues. Commissioner Tufford replied, "The SIFL has bolstered its regional footprint to include additional markets within defined areas. In order to implement growth that makes sense it is necessary to build bridges across those areas that reach playing partners. The long term affect on teams is reduced travel and reduced bottom line costs. With the addition of more teams the reality of divisional play is more likely."

I'm guessing now that "defined areas" include those outside the current SIFL regional footprint. Heading towards the 2011 season I can not see where any actions by the SIFL now point to anything but increased operating costs to teams and increased travel, probably both in the short and long terms. I can certainly understand why teams in the SIFL have reason to be concerned.

I have always had the upmost respect for Hager. While with the National Indoor Football League, he was one owner whom I could count on to make sure everything regarding his team, the Louisiana Swashbucklers, was done right. It's difficult for back room private dealings such as these not to leave a very sour taste in my mouth. He most likely had good intentions when he started the SIFL, and he surrounded himself with a league staff that shared the original dream, but it appears he ignored their advice on a number of occasions that led to trouble. I'm told his staff warned him of last year's Houston debacle and Greenville being a problem as well, yet he ignored those warnings. Even though I have had reports of Hager telling others he was making big money off his team I'm guessing the SIFL has financially and even emotionally drained him to the point that he badly wanted to get out.

As I speculated Saturday, I believe the AFL hopes to destroy all indoor football competition, and my source agrees that part of the goal of any new af2, if that's what it ends up being called, is taking down the Indoor Football League and possibly consuming the Continental Indoor Football League and UIFL along the way. In my opinion, Jerry Kurz, the AFL Commissioner who refers to the indoor leagues as "ankle biters," has long felt the indoor football leagues were trespassing on AFL turf, keeping Arena football out of markets he'd love to have.

The big question might be if this new SIFL or af2 could take down the CIFL, IFL and/or UIFL.
It may be unlikely, and their attempts to do so may end in further disaster and more spoiled markets. I'm concerned that Gary Tufford and friends may very well be on the way to destroying yet another league. He has two failures, the AIFL and WIFL, to his credit already.

Let's look at the plan I'm told Tufford and his partner have laid out for the SIFL over the next two seasons. First I'm told by another source that Thom Hager has been heard to have told others he has lost $90,000 over the first two years. I've also heard that the SIFL has not collected any fees, or maybe just partial fees, from new teams coming on board for 2011. Tufford, according to my sources, says he has successfully taken away the AIFA East from owners Mike Mink and John Morris and all that's left is to announce it. Those moves set the stage for what Tufford laid out at the recent SIFL league meetings. His plan calls for two Directors of Operation, one for the South and one for the East. There will also be two Directors of Officials set up the same way, a Director of Communications and another position, filled by his son, to handle player transactions. In all, his plan calls for eight or nine at the league level.

If it's true that Hager has lost money on the league and also true that little or no money has been collected from franchise fees, how can the SIFL afford the increase in personnel? That is the first question. The second challenge is to bring the SIFL's rules closer to those of the AFL for the 2011 season, with nets required for 2012 and the AFL governing or overseeing the league, and no doubt being paid to do so. I have no problem with the number of people at the league level, but this appears to be overkill at the least. My problem is this league is too small and can not afford this number of paid employees, nor can teams afford any large increases in fees to cover this unneeded luxury. Teams will also have to purchase the net systems, and more than a few will probably have to buy new turf to conform to AFL standards. Teams should start seeing the increase in operating budgets quickly as they may be under the AFL umbrella during the 2011 season. If teams thought the IFL was expensive, wait until they see their new budgets.

I find it difficult to see how any of this plan makes sense or will work. I can easily see the SIFL burying itself in debt and possibly leaving employees unpaid at some point, which I'm told already happened this past season. According to my source, league employees finally received at least part of what was owed at the league meetings. The SIFL was built to be a smaller regional league, but apparently its model has failed. Whatever the case, it was designed to operate with a minimum of personnel. Smaller leagues can not afford large league staffs, and six-figure expenditures for additional turf and equipment are not in the budgets of any existing teams.

There are, or perhaps were, those within the SIFL who wanted to make a difference, who wanted to do things right so that the SIFL could be pointed at as being the best indoor football league in the country for its teams and their fans, but once again we find one person at the top destroying it all. Carolyn Shiver, NIFL founder and destroyer, would be so proud that others have followed in her footsteps.
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Caballo Diablo
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nolesrule wrote:
Keep in mind that somewhere out there, there are a couple dozen unused rebound net structures. I have no idea who owns them, where they are being stored, or if they were sent off for scrap, but there's bound to be some still available.

Some of the AFL teams now are using a lighter smaller version of the net system. The older ones had a large triangular truss system type of "Iron" frame work while the newer version is single square tubing to form the frame.
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