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AFLNerd36
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Joined: 19 Jun 2016
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th&long wrote:
malepig wrote:
The NHL is a bad example. Half the teams are losing money. Yes arenas are looking at something to fill the summertime months and the AFL was a great fit. However as John Elway told me about the Crush and that is he was he had season sell outs and was losing money.

I do not know about the NBA and how profitable those teams are. But why would an NBA team use their staff on a losing product when they make money with the NBA?


on Elway -If you have season sell outs and are losing money the cost structure or the ticket prices weren't right, or he's a horrible business man.

NHL does have money losers but nba does too, I heard 9 or the NBA teams lose money and 14 would if not for some revenue sharing. So why team with an AFL franchise? Easy - you are leveraging the SUNK COST of the sales & marketing teams and back office organization. yes its 'only 7-9 extra dates but that's a manageable number, 20% more than NHL/NBA season.


Additionally, you could (if you're smart) use the AFL team as a training experience for staff (marketing interns, ticket salespeople, etc.) and as people retire (and/or your sports empire grows) you can use some of the trainees to fill empty job positions.
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Firstnten.net
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Joined: 23 Jun 2011
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th&long wrote:

The NLL has a cheap entry point and its stable so billionaires and venues owners are moving in to fill dates and get some more content aka what AFL stated they wanted to do but was too late. No one has high expectations there but they have limited downside.
The AFL main problem in 2008 was the USA financial crisis and Great Recession. Of course they were way ahead of NLL at their height.

I'll end by saying the NLL success just shows how truly incompetent the AFL leadership has been with a muh more recognizable sport (even if its a bastardized version of FB).


Simple not true in comparison to the AFL I mean FAL.

The AFL is a "nitch" sport and one that no one cares about. Most of the other indoor league teams are in small markets playing in arenas that barely hold 5000 fans.

Players in the NLL make between 19 and 30 grand a season.

That's between 1033 - 1600 a game and that doesn't include profit sharing and other expense benefits the players get that their players union successfully and amicably bargained for.

Unlike the Soto circus act.

The AFL height has come and gone and was proven to be completely unsustainable.

Networks actually PAY millions of dollars for the rights to broadcast NLL games while the no one outside of the AFL knows what the broadcasting deal is (eg. how much the AFL is paying to have games broadcast).

Granted the league names in the NLL have changed over the years franchises have come and gone.

That being said NLL franchises in the 2002 sold for 13 and 30+ million in 2003. In 2007 it was reported that the Soul was worth 32 million according to Bon Jovi in an interview up from 450,000 a few years prior.

NLL Franchise fee for the last two teams in 2017 just under a million and the next two are playing 3.0 million.

And that doesn't include any overhead. How much does it cost it start an AFL franchise? an AFL buy in? Search all you want on the net you'll never find a current accurate account of it. How do you attract ownership hiding basic costs from the public? Or maybe its the fact most media outlets and sports fans could care less.

I've never watched an NLL game and have zero interest in it but the facts are the facts. Not only is the NLL 1000 times more stable, it's more profitable NOW there is no discussion to be had on it.
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billscarnage
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd disagree the model doesn't work. Colangelo ran this exact model for about 12yrs when he owned the Rattlers.

The owner of a team doesn't necessarily need to own the arena, though that helps. Managing the arena also cuts arena rental costs for owners who don't own the arena. It's about reducing the rental cost.

This bigger issue now, imo, is that the AFL seems to have run its course with the general population. Aside from the die-hard fans, most just don't care anymore.
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AFLNerd36
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billscarnage wrote:
I'd disagree the model doesn't work. Colangelo ran this exact model for about 12yrs when he owned the Rattlers.

The owner of a team doesn't necessarily need to own the arena, though that helps. Managing the arena also cuts arena rental costs for owners who don't own the arena. It's about reducing the rental cost.

This bigger issue now, imo, is that the AFL seems to have run its course with the general population. Aside from the die-hard fans, most just don't care anymore.


I agree. What the sport needs is a new league made from AFL, IFL, and NAL teams to form and give the sport a fresh start, so to speak... the first moves of this league will be to set up a means of growing the league, stabilizing expenses while growing revenues, and blacklisting Ivan Soto.
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AFLNerd36
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Joined: 19 Jun 2016
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billscarnage wrote:
I'd disagree the model doesn't work. Colangelo ran this exact model for about 12yrs when he owned the Rattlers.

The owner of a team doesn't necessarily need to own the arena, though that helps. Managing the arena also cuts arena rental costs for owners who don't own the arena. It's about reducing the rental cost.

This bigger issue now, imo, is that the AFL seems to have run its course with the general population. Aside from the die-hard fans, most just don't care anymore.


I agree. I think a new league made of a mix of AFL, IFL, and NAL teams and new teams would give the sport new life. This new league should focus on stabilizing costs, increasing revenues, and growing the league... they should also learn from other leagues' mistakes and thoroughly vet ownership groups and blacklist Ivan Soto.
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mactheknife
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Joined: 03 Feb 2012
Location: Raleigh, NC
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th&long wrote:
The NLL has a cheap entry point and its stable so billionaires and venues owners are moving in to fill dates and get some more content aka what AFL stated they wanted to do but was too late. No one has high expectations there but they have limited downside.
The AFL main problem in 2008 was the USA financial crisis and Great Recession. Of course they were way ahead of NLL at their height.

I'll end by saying the NLL success just shows how truly incompetent the AFL leadership has been with a muh more recognizable sport (even if its a bastardized version of FB).


Precisely.

But the AFL wasn't too late. It was a decades-old product that has high operating costs and a growth potential that's in its rear-view mirror.

The recession didn't kill the original Arena Football League. David Baker's franchise ponzi scheme coupled with pure, unadulterated hubris in its own self-promotion did. It was a 'niche niche' sport that promoted itself as far more than it really was. It was the professional sports equivalent of Icarus.

The NLL's success doesn't paint AFL 2.0 as incompetent, but rather as a tired product. The alleged success of the original league during its heyday is precisely why its successor is on its deathbed and the entire sport is on life support. An entire generation of potential fans got jerked around by Baker at the league level, and at the franchise level buy countless egotistical businessmen that (i) thought it'd be cool to own a team in their city, (ii) were dumb enough to shell out millions for an expansion franchise, (iii) thought they'd somehow recoup that money within a few years, then ultimately (iv) pulled the plug when they realized that wasn't happening.

AFL/AF2/AFL 2.0 did to indoor football what the NASL did to professional soccer: it whet the appetite, but ultimately was so unstable and burned so many bridges that it nearly took down the entire sport it was organized to promote. If we're fortunate, perhaps in 2030 or so, the next generation, having forgotten the 90's/2000's, will pick up the baton and start running.
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sportsrankings
 

Joined: 04 Mar 2015
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you need to have a draft, set pay for everyone, prize money. XFL averaged 25k, lost a 100 million and they made the XFL players pay for their own insurance.

Arena Football needs to figure out the model that will allow teams to be profitable by the 2nd or 3rd year of $900k ticket revenue and $100k sponsorship.
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4th&long
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Joined: 05 May 2017
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sportsrankings wrote:
I think you need to have a draft, set pay for everyone, prize money. XFL averaged 25k, lost a 100 million and they made the XFL players pay for their own insurance.

Arena Football needs to figure out the model that will allow teams to be profitable by the 2nd or 3rd year of $900k ticket revenue and $100k sponsorship.


That's more like the Iowa/NAL model. I don't include AZ as they are far above that already.
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Firstnten.net
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Joined: 23 Jun 2011
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mactheknife wrote:


Quote:
The Arena Football League brand has been ruined. It is obsolete, should be scrapped and/or retired. It is a relic of the late 1980s and has been abused for a vast amount of time.


http://sportstao.com/what-is-killing-arena-football/
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afdave
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Joined: 01 Jan 2001
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstnten.net wrote:
mactheknife wrote:


Quote:
The Arena Football League brand has been ruined. It is obsolete, should be scrapped and/or retired. It is a relic of the late 1980s and has been abused for a vast amount of time.


http://sportstao.com/what-is-killing-arena-football/


Here is the thing about measuring social media to gauge "fan interest"... There are a lot of non locals who follow a team... Their follow means little to nothing. When random arenafan user follows every team on FB, and doesn't live near any of them, that is false numbers for local support.
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4th&long
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Joined: 05 May 2017
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afdave wrote:
Firstnten.net wrote:
mactheknife wrote:


Quote:
The Arena Football League brand has been ruined. It is obsolete, should be scrapped and/or retired. It is a relic of the late 1980s and has been abused for a vast amount of time.


http://sportstao.com/what-is-killing-arena-football/


Here is the thing about measuring social media to gauge "fan interest"... There are a lot of non locals who follow a team... Their follow means little to nothing. When random arenafan user follows every team on FB, and doesn't live near any of them, that is false numbers for local support.


I'm sorry but that article is ridiculous.
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AFL79
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mactheknife wrote:
4th&long wrote:
famicommander wrote:
Seems to be working out for the NLL.

Just because the idiots in charge of the AFL didn't execute it properly doesn't mean the strategy was poor to begin with.


The who? Come on, please.


The National Lacrosse League. You know... the guys who are adding billionaire-backed franchises in new markets at $5 million a pop.


It could be that lacrosse itself has few established recognized outlets for lacrosse fans to follow, they have college lacrosse and the outdoor pro league. Hard core lacrosse fans are hungry for anything lacrosse, football has the NFL and NCAA and hard core football fans have enough of the REAL thing they don't need an indoor version.
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AFL79
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th&long wrote:
mactheknife wrote:
4th&long wrote:
famicommander wrote:
Seems to be working out for the NLL.

Just because the idiots in charge of the AFL didn't execute it properly doesn't mean the strategy was poor to begin with.


The who? Come on, please.


The National Lacrosse League. You know... the guys who are adding billionaire-backed franchises in new markets at $5 million a pop.


Its not on the Radar, extreme niche. Yes Indoor FB is niche but its still FB.

Just being real here.


Being football is the AFL's weakness, being lacrosse is the NLL's strength, football fans have tons of football content to follow, lacrosse is so niche, that their die hards will welcome anything crappy as hell just for having the name lacrosse on it.
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AFL79
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

famicommander wrote:
Of their nine currently active teams, 5 averaged at least 9,600 fans last year and 3 averaged 14,400-15,200.



This is exactly my point, all these people want to see lacrosse, is there any other lacrosse to watch regularly? It's a better investment than AFL, because it has less competition. Most football fans dismissed indoor football as a joke long ago and don't even care to give it even a chance. A lot of these people played lacrosse in high school or college, like it, and this is actually a major pro league to their sport.
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famicommander
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFL79 wrote:
famicommander wrote:
Of their nine currently active teams, 5 averaged at least 9,600 fans last year and 3 averaged 14,400-15,200.



This is exactly my point, all these people want to see lacrosse, is there any other lacrosse to watch regularly? It's a better investment than AFL, because it has less competition. Most football fans dismissed indoor football as a joke long ago and don't even care to give it even a chance. A lot of these people played lacrosse in high school or college, like it, and this is actually a major pro league to their sport.


There is plenty of competition for lacrosse:
-NCAA lacrosse
-Major League Lacrosse
-Canadian Senior and Junior lacrosse

Just here in Denver we have a major DI lacrosse program with a dedicated lacrosse stadium, an NLL team owned by the Nuggets/Avalanche, and an MLL team owned by the Broncos.
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mactheknife
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Joined: 03 Feb 2012
Location: Raleigh, NC
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

famicommander wrote:
There is plenty of competition for lacrosse:
-NCAA lacrosse
-Major League Lacrosse
-Canadian Senior and Junior lacrosse

Just here in Denver we have a major DI lacrosse program with a dedicated lacrosse stadium, an NLL team owned by the Nuggets/Avalanche, and an MLL team owned by the Broncos.


There's plenty of summer season competition in lacrosse. Sort of.

NLL and MLL are comparable to MISL and NASL circa 1979... no one's really sure which will be more popular with American audiences a generation from now. Both the indoor and outdoor games are making headway, but the indoor game is the current front-runner.

The big advantages NLL has at this point are (i) they seem to have made it past the usual start-up league period of rampant franchise instability (this era in the NFL lasted its first quarter century), and (ii) they seem to have found team owners that are built for the long haul - that is, willing and able to absorb financial losses over a sustained period in an effort to lay a foundation and build a brand.

MISL never had that. NASL never did either, save Warner Communications owning the New York Cosmos. The NBA didn't really have it until the 1980's. The original AFL nor AFL 2.0 got past the rampant instability phase. By comparison, NLL is far ahead on the learning curve.
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TargetToad
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Joined: 31 May 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mactheknife wrote:
famicommander wrote:
There is plenty of competition for lacrosse:
-NCAA lacrosse
-Major League Lacrosse
-Canadian Senior and Junior lacrosse

Just here in Denver we have a major DI lacrosse program with a dedicated lacrosse stadium, an NLL team owned by the Nuggets/Avalanche, and an MLL team owned by the Broncos.


There's plenty of summer season competition in lacrosse. Sort of.

NLL and MLL are comparable to MISL and NASL circa 1979... no one's really sure which will be more popular with American audiences a generation from now. Both the indoor and outdoor games are making headway, but the indoor game is the current front-runner.

The big advantages NLL has at this point are (i) they seem to have made it past the usual start-up league period of rampant franchise instability (this era in the NFL lasted its first quarter century), and (ii) they seem to have found team owners that are built for the long haul - that is, willing and able to absorb financial losses over a sustained period in an effort to lay a foundation and build a brand.

MISL never had that. NASL never did either, save Warner Communications owning the New York Cosmos. The NBA didn't really have it until the 1980's. The original AFL nor AFL 2.0 got past the rampant instability phase. By comparison, NLL is far ahead on the learning curve.

Well said. Again, the Arena League lost or relocated at least 1 team every year
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Firstnten.net
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Joined: 23 Jun 2011
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th&long wrote:
afdave wrote:
Firstnten.net wrote:
mactheknife wrote:


Quote:
The Arena Football League brand has been ruined. It is obsolete, should be scrapped and/or retired. It is a relic of the late 1980s and has been abused for a vast amount of time.


http://sportstao.com/what-is-killing-arena-football/


Here is the thing about measuring social media to gauge "fan interest"... There are a lot of non locals who follow a team... Their follow means little to nothing. When random arenafan user follows every team on FB, and doesn't live near any of them, that is false numbers for local support.


I'm sorry but that article is ridiculous.
don't be sorry the only thing in that article I 100% agreed with was the quote I posted
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