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CBA update?
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4th&long
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstnten.net wrote:
afdave wrote:


That being said... should the AFLPU take $250/gm, or $500/gm if the AFL teams say "that is what we are offering".... no.... I mean, you can go play in the IFL at that point then. I am not aware that that is what the AFL is planning on offering though... I would think the starting point is the $800-1000/gm, wherever that is sitting right now this past season. It sounds like the AFL wants to go to more of a "whole team" salary cap, along with a player minimum, vs. an individual player salary/cap based on tenure... which seems reasonable... then you are just deciding what the cap is, based on how much money (supposedly) the teams are making in raw income, vs. their expenses other than player costs.


I would bet good money that this is the problem. The AFL wants a cap and Soto's idea of how much the cap should be I would bet is completely unreasonable and or unrealistic.

Just going by the statement he made on how much the league should be charging fans.


I agree. And clearly the owners have all the pull. Why the PU be having a guy who expresses his opinion on every political issue big and small on his Facebook page is beyond me. Get someone who is polished and down to business.

And as many have pointed out - there is other talent out there to play in the AFL. The MVP in ArenaBowl was a NAL-LV-Steelhawk for heaven sake. The focus should be on minimum increases along with stability and expansion. That benefits owners and players.
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afdave
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojodcat wrote:
20 man game day roster, correct? Seems $10,00 ($500 average)on the low side and $15,000 ($750 average) on the high is where the team ownership's would be shooting for.


(IMO) No way the AFLPU goes for that... that is a reduction overall (and a fairly stark one). If anything, I'd see like minimum $1,000/gm "average", with a $700-800/gm minimum.

I am pretty sure players get season contracts, so, to extrapolate that out, let's assume they try to go back up to 16 games with 8 teams, fewer bye weeks, since an even number of teams it isn't necessary.

$1k * 16 games * 20 players = $320k.... that seems "reasonable"..... the "minimum" at $750/gm player minimum would be $240k.... so, all team salaries for the year would be between $240k-320k... honestly, not that large of a range, but, gives the teams some wiggle room to do higher negotiations, and "plan" teams differently .... you could pay a single player a maximum of $92k actually ($750/gm minimum for 19 players leave $92k left for the 20th player)... now, that would be extremely heavy slant to one "star" player and a bunch of "scrubs".... more likely would be something like 15 players at an average of $850/gm ... leaving the "Top 5" to average $23.2 ($1,450/gm).
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AFLNerd36
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afdave wrote:
mojodcat wrote:
20 man game day roster, correct? Seems $10,00 ($500 average)on the low side and $15,000 ($750 average) on the high is where the team ownership's would be shooting for.


(IMO) No way the AFLPU goes for that... that is a reduction overall (and a fairly stark one). If anything, I'd see like minimum $1,000/gm "average", with a $700-800/gm minimum.

I am pretty sure players get season contracts, so, to extrapolate that out, let's assume they try to go back up to 16 games with 8 teams, fewer bye weeks, since an even number of teams it isn't necessary.

$1k * 16 games * 20 players = $320k.... that seems "reasonable"..... the "minimum" at $750/gm player minimum would be $240k.... so, all team salaries for the year would be between $240k-320k... honestly, not that large of a range, but, gives the teams some wiggle room to do higher negotiations, and "plan" teams differently .... you could pay a single player a maximum of $92k actually ($750/gm minimum for 19 players leave $92k left for the 20th player)... now, that would be extremely heavy slant to one "star" player and a bunch of "scrubs".... more likely would be something like 15 players at an average of $850/gm ... leaving the "Top 5" to average $23.2 ($1,450/gm).


Better would be a minimum of $1200 for active game-day players ($1k minimum pay for being on roster) with a salary cap of $900k, giving the general manager and head coach more leeway in how much to pay players. Hills and Hippeard could get a sizeable amount of money, as would Raudabaugh and Carden....

Also, I think this is a good opportunity to seize, with the NFL's declining popularity (due to a plethora of reasons)... show off the AFL's fast-paced product and the great atmosphere of the game... include the affordable (as opposed to NFL games) ticket prices, and for good measure, we the fans should invite others to watch and/or go to games!
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afdave
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, well, OBVIOUSLY a $900k salary cap is better for the players than a $320k..... do the owners even want to entertain that high of a salary cap.... I don't believe so, but, I could be wrong.
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billscarnage
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afdave wrote:
Honestly, while yes, the players in the AFL have a slightly better skill set than players in other indoor leagues, that is mainly a situation of the pay difference.... but even with that, this isn't the NFL.... whereas the NFLPU uses the ability of having "star players" NOT playing if the NFL doesn't meet their demands... there are no true "star players" in the AFL the AFLPU can really use to make the same demands.

Pretty much this. I look at from the practicality aspect; why does this league even need a union/CBA?

There are what, as of now, 120ish players scattered across hundreds of miles.

There is no entertainment, community or economic impact if they don't play. Aside from this board and a few other fans in the wild, I doubt 99% of AFL fans even know the CBA expired.

There's no TV contract. Not one that pays.

There's no revenue sharing

How much are the players paying in dues and what is that really going to?

And the way players jump in and out of the league or are "assigned". PffffT.

The owners probably realize this too.
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TargetToad
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojodcat wrote:
20 man game day roster, correct? Seems $10,00 ($500 average)on the low side and $15,000 ($750 average) on the high is where the team ownership's would be shooting for.

If your average ticket is $15 and you have 7500 fans show up. That gives you $112,500 per game. Add up the $15 (on the low end) people spend on consessions, and that's an additional $112,500.
So per game you have a $225,000 .
With your 20-player roster at $1,000 per game, that's $40,000 for both teams players (not including whatever the non-actige players get paid), not counting the $10,000 to keep the stadium open, an additional $15,000 for conession/ushers/ticket workers pay, $10,000 for security, $5,000 for radio/in-game media. $5,000 for food/cleaning. $5,000 for advertising. $12,500 for traveling the roadteam (and their stuff) by plane ($5 000 by bus for less comfortable players). And aditional 25,000 per week for the staffs of both team. That's about $125,000 per game of expenses (I know I'm forgetting stuff).
Just taking the stuff I listed, that leaves $100,000 gained per game.
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afdave
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TargetToad wrote:
mojodcat wrote:
20 man game day roster, correct? Seems $10,00 ($500 average)on the low side and $15,000 ($750 average) on the high is where the team ownership's would be shooting for.

If your average ticket is $15 and you have 7500 fans show up. ......



Well, let's get 7,500 FULLY PAID a game coming consistantly, and then the above would be accurate..... we all know the numbers are somewhat "papered" to begin with, and then on top of that the people that are counted getting in, many are in for either free or practically free. I mean, are we forgetting that it was only a few years ago we had an Arenabowl that you could get into for literally a can of corn?
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TargetToad
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afdave wrote:
TargetToad wrote:
mojodcat wrote:
20 man game day roster, correct? Seems $10,00 ($500 average)on the low side and $15,000 ($750 average) on the high is where the team ownership's would be shooting for.

If your average ticket is $15 and you have 7500 fans show up. ......



Well, let's get 7,500 FULLY PAID a game coming consistantly, and then the above would be accurate..... we all know the numbers are somewhat "papered" to begin with, and then on top of that the people that are counted getting in, many are in for either free or practically free. I mean, are we forgetting that it was only a few years ago we had an Arenabowl that you could get into for literally a can of corn?

OK, so 4,000 tickets at $15; meaning that you are left with only $200,000 per game.
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billscarnage
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TargetToad wrote:
If your average ticket is $15 and you have 7500 fans show up. That gives you $112,500 per game. Add up the $15 (on the low end) people spend on consessions, and that's an additional $112,500.

Two reasons, of several, the NBA/NHL owners are coveted is arena ownership/management and concessions. Most, if not all, of the previous owners had to rent the arena and probably didn't get much from concessions. Those two alone made it very difficult for most owners to pay the bills.

Between those two items and cross promotion with ticket sales and sponsors, these owners could be turning a profit.

There's still insurance and medical bills, but overall there's less financial weight than non-NBA/NHL owners had.
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mojodcat
 

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TargetToad wrote:
afdave wrote:
TargetToad wrote:
mojodcat wrote:
20 man game day roster, correct? Seems $10,00 ($500 average)on the low side and $15,000 ($750 average) on the high is where the team ownership's would be shooting for.

If your average ticket is $15 and you have 7500 fans show up. ......



Well, let's get 7,500 FULLY PAID a game coming consistantly, and then the above would be accurate..... we all know the numbers are somewhat "papered" to begin with, and then on top of that the people that are counted getting in, many are in for either free or practically free. I mean, are we forgetting that it was only a few years ago we had an Arenabowl that you could get into for literally a can of corn?

OK, so 4,000 tickets at $15; meaning that you are left with only $200,000 per game.


and you haven't paid:
Arena rent.. 10K per game? does that include paying arena staff (depends on lease)
coaching staff say 5 x $1000 per game? $5000
workers comp >$50,000 per year ($6250 per game)
front office staff.. (part time) $45,000 per year total 5625 per game
your share of what $1,000,000 for the commish? (divided by 5) $200,000 25K per game

player housing,10 apartments at 500 per month for 6 months $3750 per game

that's just short of $60,000 and you haven't paid for:

music fees, pay to be on TV ($???,???) per year..league fees...
away game travel, cell phones, office supplies, advertising, player meals, medical treatments, etc etc.


Y'all act like there's actually money being made in this sport... the high number of teams folding every year at all levels of the 50 yard game leads me to believe otherwise. the teams obviously (should) want to keep their costs at a minimum and yet maintain the standard of play. But even that standard is a bit subjective, and 67% of the butts in the seats wouldn't know the difference between a roster of AFL guys versus say NAL or IFL guys. They just know AFL is "better" because they see it on TV.

Not wishing to engage in a talent level discussion, just speaking to the cluelessness of the casual fan.
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TargetToad
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojodcat wrote:
TargetToad wrote:
afdave wrote:
TargetToad wrote:
mojodcat wrote:
20 man game day roster, correct? Seems $10,00 ($500 average)on the low side and $15,000 ($750 average) on the high is where the team ownership's would be shooting for.

If your average ticket is $15 and you have 7500 fans show up. ......



Well, let's get 7,500 FULLY PAID a game coming consistantly, and then the above would be accurate..... we all know the numbers are somewhat "papered" to begin with, and then on top of that the people that are counted getting in, many are in for either free or practically free. I mean, are we forgetting that it was only a few years ago we had an Arenabowl that you could get into for literally a can of corn?

OK, so 4,000 tickets at $15; meaning that you are left with only $200,000 per game.


and you haven't paid:
Arena rent.. 10K per game? does that include paying arena staff (depends on lease)
coaching staff say 5 x $1000 per game? $5000
workers comp >$50,000 per year ($6250 per game)
front office staff.. (part time) $45,000 per year total 5625 per game
your share of what $1,000,000 for the commish? (divided by 5) $200,000 25K per game

player housing,10 apartments at 500 per month for 6 months $3750 per game

that's just short of $60,000 and you haven't paid for:

music fees, pay to be on TV ($???,???) per year..league fees...
away game travel, cell phones, office supplies, advertising, player meals, medical treatments, etc etc.


Y'all act like there's actually money being made in this sport... the high number of teams folding every year at all levels of the 50 yard game leads me to believe otherwise. the teams obviously (should) want to keep their costs at a minimum and yet maintain the standard of play. But even that standard is a bit subjective, and 67% of the butts in the seats wouldn't know the difference between a roster of AFL guys versus say NAL or IFL guys. They just know AFL is "better" because they see it on TV.

Not wishing to engage in a talent level discussion, just speaking to the cluelessness of the casual fan.

Thank you, I knew I missed a lot of fees. TL;DR AFL ownership isn't a sound investment (although neither is the WNBA), and Ivan Soto wanted, by doing absolutely nothing but waiting for a steak on a silver platter when a hamburger would be more than enough, to make that investment worse for the owners; therefore keeping other owners out.
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ArenaFanJersey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think we are looking at a 500-600k salary cap with small increases over the life of the CBA. What you will see is improved wording for players on housing, off season programs, food programs, etc.

One point of interest will be health insurance and those benefits.
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mojodcat
 

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArenaFanJersey wrote:
I still think we are looking at a 500-600k salary cap with small increases over the life of the CBA. What you will see is improved wording for players on housing, off season programs, food programs, etc.

One point of interest will be health insurance and those benefits.


Where's that money coming from.. we already discussed that these owners are, at best, making $3000-5000 a game under the current salary structure.

Unless the networks start paying the league instead of the other way around, OR they return to a ~10-12 man "Ironman" style roster, the money simply isn't there to pay these guys much of anything.
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ArenaFanJersey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 5-600k cap really isn't much of an increase at all. Its an increase of about 15k per gane for the entire team. The improved facilities, food, housing type stuff already has improved with deeper pocket owners with already ties to do this in the sports business.
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mactheknife
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArenaFanJersey wrote:
A 5-600k cap really isn't much of an increase at all. Its an increase of about 15k per gane for the entire team. The improved facilities, food, housing type stuff already has improved with deeper pocket owners with already ties to do this in the sports business.


Actually, it'd be a huge bump, and one which could be ill afforded.

Per the CBA that just expired the maximum per-game salary for 2017 is $925. Let's do a breakdown of basic team operating costs for a team and see if the numbers support an increase.

Assuming $925 per player and a 24 player overall limit, we're at $22,200 per game, home or away. Factor in payroll taxes and mandatory benefits (particularly workers' compensation insurance, which for professional football players is astronomical), and you can pretty much double those numbers.

For road games, there's travel. Per the CBA, team travel in excess of 750 miles mandates travel by air, and regardless of that, teams must provide "3 star" or better hotel accommodations while on the road. While Baltimore, Philadelphia and Washington being in such close proximity made air travel between them unnecessary, trips to Cleveland and Tampa were still presumably by air. Presuming $400/seat round-trip and 35 passengers per trip (24 players, coaches, trainers, owner), that's $14,000. Everyone can double-up on hotel rooms, but that's still 18 rooms at around $200 per ($3,600).

There's also a CBA provision requiring players get a $41 per diem, so presuming a 3 day trip for each road game, that's $2,952 ($41 x 3 days x 24 players). Extend that out to your 35-person entourage and you have $4,305. There's also care and feeding of non-player personnel, conference rooms for "chalk talk" sessions and other travel and accommodation costs, but let's simplify these and lump them together into a "transport and lodging" cost of another $5,000.

So without taking into account myriad other categories of expenses a team incurs, let's review the basic costs a team incurs for a road game requiring air travel:
- $ 22,200 - base player compensation
- $ 22,200 - factored in for payroll taxes and mandatory benefits
- $ 14,000 - airfare to game site
- $ 3,600 - hotel rooms
- $ 2,952 - per diem for players
- $ 5,000 - lodging and transport
- $ 69,952 / approximate cost per road game

Then there are home games. Strip away the expenses incident to road games and you're starting with a baseline cost of $44,400 per game. But, we have a set of other expenses associated with staging home games. You need pyrotechnics for the pregame. You need to hire the girls from the nearby Hooters to fire off t-shirt cannon. You get the idea. But we'll get back to them.

Arena rent is the major per-game expense, but in this area it's a flexible cost for the most part, as while arena rents vary from one facility to another, generally it's a percentage of gross gate revenue (10-15%). There are also ancillary fixed costs over and above that amount (for example, in one lease I read, the arena charges $1,100 for each ticket window it has open on gamedays). Also, almost every area charges rent for the days before and after an event (you've got to put the field in place, and you have to remove it, after all) at "half-rate."

For simplicity's sake, let's say a team's going to give the arena operator 24% of the gate (6% for the day before to set-up, 12% for the day of the game, and 6% for the day after to tear down). All ancillary revenues (parking, concessions) go to the arena operator, so unless you own or operate the arena (can you say NBA/NHL?), your only revenue source is ticket sales.

So let's say the Edmonton Express host the Abilene Mean Machine and draw the 2017 AFL average attendance of 9,248, who pay an average ticket price of $40 for the privilege. Gross gate revenues are $369,920, but after the arena operator gets its cut, and the local governing authority gets its amusement and other taxes (say, 5%), you'll be down to a "net gate" of $262,643.

Now, deduct your $44,400 in base player costs ($218,243). Then remember, for every home game you have a road game, so to balance it out let's deduct our approximate road game cost from the home game's revenues ($148,291). But hey, with a 14 game regular season, that's still a shade over $2 million, right?

Don't forget the pyrotechnics.
Or paying the gameday operations crew.
Or the coaches.
Or the trainers and medical staff.
Or the cannon girls.
Or for the office space you have to operate the team from.
Or the sales staff who sold those 9,248 tickets.
Or the media/PR guy.

And don't forget, on whatever's left after all that? You're going to pay at least 15% in taxes.

Now this rundown is simplistic compared to what actually goes on, but just in doing so, you can see that AFL 2.0 isn't a sustainable business model without (1) NBA/NHL owners and/or arena operators who can counter costs with concessions/parking revenue, and (2) the AFLPU either being broken, or at least agreeing to maintain the status quo until the league's overall financial health improves.
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billscarnage
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If salaries are increased the players may have to give up something. Say, housing?
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AFLNerd36
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

billscarnage wrote:
If salaries are increased the players may have to give up something. Say, housing?


Or have housing only for training camp and players from more than 100 miles away...
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ArenaFanJersey
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still do not see a 5-600k number for the overall salary cap being an issue for these owners and to me your math backs that up with sponsorship money included. The biggest difference with these owners is they get concessions, share of parking, etc. That is what covers the difference.

The only team that would be worried a slight bit is Philly but they also bring in according to the last report I saw in 2015 the most sponsorship money and that was with Arizona, Orlando, and Jax still in the league.

We will see who is right when new CBA is shared but I would not be surprised to see a 500-600k number for a salary cap.
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4th&long
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArenaFanJersey wrote:
I still do not see a 5-600k number for the overall salary cap being an issue for these owners and to me your math backs that up with sponsorship money included. The biggest difference with these owners is they get concessions, share of parking, etc. That is what covers the difference.

The only team that would be worried a slight bit is Philly but they also bring in according to the last report I saw in 2015 the most sponsorship money and that was with Arizona, Orlando, and Jax still in the league.

We will see who is right when new CBA is shared but I would not be surprised to see a 500-600k number for a salary cap.


Asking for a salary increase in this environment beyond a marginal amount isn't smart or going to fly IMO. The league is not stable enough to play games and the players need to realize that.
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4th&long
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject: Owners and AFLPU - Will a new CBA emerge? Reply with quote

Looking at the CBA from 2012-2017, I can see that the AFLPU is going to argue for more $ IMO. Not that its a smart move but:

1) Travel expenses are way down
2) There should be no NEW legacy shutdown costs for folding team
3) Economy 2012 vs 2017: When they signed before the country was just getting out of the great recession - now the stk market is way up and GDP have been building up and now starting to rev.

IS of the AFLPU may be playing with fire but he will be gunning for more player $$. Current per game salary for 20 active players is $925 with a $350 bonus for starting QB's. Plus there are contract bonuses. Inactives get $650 + per diems, housing subsidies, training camp pay etc...

Rumor is they are separated by millions - I could believe that.

I don't see the league moving forward without a CBA like this that has a NO Lockout/Strike clause.

This is going to be interesting....

Here is a link to the prior CBA:
https://law.marquette.edu/assets/sports-law/pdf/2012-conf-aflcba.pdf
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